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Question Time - Russell Brand vs Nigel Farage in clash over immigration

Question Time - Russell Brand vs Nigel Farage in clash over immigration

(7:13) Possibly the most heated audience participation in the history of Question Time. Comedian Russell Brand and UKIP leader Nigel Farage debate whether Britain is becoming overcrowded due to immigration. The actual question was: "Is Britain really overcrowded?"

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Guest: WolfPad (1066 days ago)
Latest comment:

Russell Brand is an ignorant shit who speaks garbage. Luckily - on this occasion, he got found out as members of the audience called him out! Don't ever forget what he and his 'mate' Ross did to Andrew Sachs!!!

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Latest comment:

Russell Brand is an ignorant shit who speaks garbage. Luckily - on this occasion, he got found out as members of the audience called him out! Don't ever forget what he and his 'mate' Ross did to Andrew Sachs!!!

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Guest: Happy Al (1071 days ago)

I don't suport UKIP although it is inevitable that if a Country increases rapidly in population growth without increasing infrastructure then something has to give . Cutting imigration numbers does not make you rasist on this point unless you have an axe to grind . RG is the biggest tit in Britain and we have a few , against everything but offers no real answers.

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I don't suport UKIP although it is inevitable that if a Country increases rapidly in population growth without increasing infrastructure then something has to give . Cutting imigration numbers does not make you rasist on this point unless you have an axe to grind . RG is the biggest tit in Britain and we have a few , against everything but offers no real answers.

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Guest: (1071 days ago)

its ok to control imagration but that is what the uk do and alwasy will do.you can not go in and out of the uk how you want. its just scaremongering to blame others.

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its ok to control imagration but that is what the uk do and alwasy will do.you can not go in and out of the uk how you want. its just scaremongering to blame others.

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Guest: cenglandOO (1070 days ago)

Brand another name for CNUT annoying voice , p!ss off and get a hair cut

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Brand another name for CNUT annoying voice , p!ss off and get a hair cut

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Guest: BazzaToYou (1071 days ago)

Brand ... all talk, no trousers. Worth 15 million and speaks for the average person.

"Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain - and most fools do"

- Benjamin Franklin-

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Brand ... all talk, no trousers. Worth 15 million and speaks for the average person.

"Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain - and most fools do"

- Benjamin Franklin-

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1071 days ago)

Don't you think he made a good point when he said "Immigrants are not causing the economic problems and suffering we're experiencing"?

A recent study found that: "European migrants made a net contribution of £20bn to UK public finances between 2000 and 2011." LINK

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Don't you think he made a good point when he said "Immigrants are not causing the economic problems and suffering we're experiencing"?

A recent study found that: "European migrants made a net contribution of £20bn to UK public finances between 2000 and 2011." LINK

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Casey Casey (1070 days ago)

That's all very well but I'd guess that Europeans alone don't make up the largest block of immigrants to the UK and this is what Farage is saying. In a country as small as the UK they should be picking and choosing who comes in, Farage is not anti immigration as many would like to portray. And raising taxes on businesses is a sure way to push those businesses to locate elsewhere or make them think twice about expanding and providing more jobs.

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That's all very well but I'd guess that Europeans alone don't make up the largest block of immigrants to the UK and this is what Farage is saying. In a country as small as the UK they should be picking and choosing who comes in, Farage is not anti immigration as many would like to portray. And raising taxes on businesses is a sure way to push those businesses to locate elsewhere or make them think twice about expanding and providing more jobs.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1070 days ago)

Actually Nigel Farage is focused on European immigration.

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Actually Nigel Farage is focused on European immigration.

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Guest: rk (1071 days ago)

Brand made a valid, but rather obvious point. Aggregate net benefits can coexist with localised problems, and this is where Brand could have had a meaningful debate with Farage. He could have, if he were able to form a grammatically correct sentence or formulate a valid argument. Russell Brand can't do either -he is one of the few panellists less eloquent than the average audience member.

Instead of committing himself (e.g. by standing for parliament or by offering practical solutions) he hits out at vaguely defined enemy figures like greedy bankers. This is no more valuable than vilifying immigrants.

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Brand made a valid, but rather obvious point. Aggregate net benefits can coexist with localised problems, and this is where Brand could have had a meaningful debate with Farage. He could have, if he were able to form a grammatically correct sentence or formulate a valid argument. Russell Brand can't do either -he is one of the few panellists less eloquent than the average audience member.

Instead of committing himself (e.g. by standing for parliament or by offering practical solutions) he hits out at vaguely defined enemy figures like greedy bankers. This is no more valuable than vilifying immigrants.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1071 days ago)

I think Russell Brand is extremely eloquent. Having said that, I'm not sure if people fully understand his point, which I understand as:

Immigration is not an economic problem, it's an economic benefit to the UK. Immigration does put a strain on education, health services etc. but if corporations paid their fair share of taxes... no problem.

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I think Russell Brand is extremely eloquent. Having said that, I'm not sure if people fully understand his point, which I understand as:

Immigration is not an economic problem, it's an economic benefit to the UK. Immigration does put a strain on education, health services etc. but if corporations paid their fair share of taxes... no problem.

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Guest: rk (1070 days ago)

Well let's agree to disagree. He had a talent for vacuous verbosity in earlier appearances. More recently, and on question time in particular, his English was bad enough to fail a naturalisation test.

Your interpretation fills in a few gaps and discards a lot of waffle. Even then, it amounts to saying 'I'd rather talk about banksters than the topic under discussion...'.

I am not convinced that the UK is overcrowded. There are debates to be had about immigration, taxation and public sector finance. But simply blaming any problem under the sun on bankers is a bit of a cop-out.

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Well let's agree to disagree. He had a talent for vacuous verbosity in earlier appearances. More recently, and on question time in particular, his English was bad enough to fail a naturalisation test.

Your interpretation fills in a few gaps and discards a lot of waffle. Even then, it amounts to saying 'I'd rather talk about banksters than the topic under discussion...'.

I am not convinced that the UK is overcrowded. There are debates to be had about immigration, taxation and public sector finance. But simply blaming any problem under the sun on bankers is a bit of a cop-out.

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Guest: (1071 days ago)

Britain uses immigration as a tool to help the economy. Someone born in thre UK takes the between 16-24 years till they can start paying taxes. until then they cost the UK.

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Britain uses immigration as a tool to help the economy. Someone born in thre UK takes the between 16-24 years till they can start paying taxes. until then they cost the UK.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1071 days ago)

I've never heard that angle before. Definitely food for thought.

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I've never heard that angle before. Definitely food for thought.

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Guest: TheMaldonian (1069 days ago)

I look forward seeing Russell and all his chums on the central line between six and nine thirty ervery day when commuters are lined up five deep just to try and squeeze on a tube. Or gutting fish or digging for coal, or whatever shite job people have to do for a living for shite wages. Or try and get a doctors appointment withing three bloody days, or your kid into a decent school or get from A to B on a bloody road that's little more than a car park. We're full up. Get over it.

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I look forward seeing Russell and all his chums on the central line between six and nine thirty ervery day when commuters are lined up five deep just to try and squeeze on a tube. Or gutting fish or digging for coal, or whatever shite job people have to do for a living for shite wages. Or try and get a doctors appointment withing three bloody days, or your kid into a decent school or get from A to B on a bloody road that's little more than a car park. We're full up. Get over it.

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Guest: (1070 days ago)

I don't understand why this person is popular. People think americans are stupid because such exports.

Besides that, Nigel has a point about too many people immigrating and need to be taken care of in standards of an Europan country (regardless of EU membership, as quite a few European countries are not EU members). Russel also has a point that money horeded from all collonies AND unugrants working un UK for cheap are not fairly distributed. Honest immigrants have a hanging subcontious fear, while they work for cheap, and are scared of weather they will do something right or wrong and be expelled.

What is a botom line here is yes - there are too many immigrants, especually those that require or demand special treatment. And someone has to say it - it's balck people who scare white people and make them feek unpleasant when near, which brings up racism. On other hand, white people are not scared of asians, they think they are lazy and want have double mind in what they say do and are overly arrogant for local standards.

On third hand, British society deserved that because of slave trading, occupying other people's lands and exploatation of wealth.

At this point, Brits do have a huge problem with african and asian immigration, but would have to revert to feufal middle ages ud they don't want to let all collonies go, pay them back what they stole, plus expences for world courts of justice to families of thise forcefully took to ships to become slaves, been used as tools or jyst out of hegemony whips that would be considered uncivilized today.

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I don't understand why this person is popular. People think americans are stupid because such exports.

Besides that, Nigel has a point about too many people immigrating and need to be taken care of in standards of an Europan country (regardless of EU membership, as quite a few European countries are not EU members). Russel also has a point that money horeded from all collonies AND unugrants working un UK for cheap are not fairly distributed. Honest immigrants have a hanging subcontious fear, while they work for cheap, and are scared of weather they will do something right or wrong and be expelled.

What is a botom line here is yes - there are too many immigrants, especually those that require or demand special treatment. And someone has to say it - it's balck people who scare white people and make them feek unpleasant when near, which brings up racism. On other hand, white people are not scared of asians, they think they are lazy and want have double mind in what they say do and are overly arrogant for local standards.

On third hand, British society deserved that because of slave trading, occupying other people's lands and exploatation of wealth.

At this point, Brits do have a huge problem with african and asian immigration, but would have to revert to feufal middle ages ud they don't want to let all collonies go, pay them back what they stole, plus expences for world courts of justice to families of thise forcefully took to ships to become slaves, been used as tools or jyst out of hegemony whips that would be considered uncivilized today.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1069 days ago)

I think you completely miss the point, and I think Russell Brand is spot on.

The cuts we are experiencing (health, police, education, armed services etc) are not because of immigration. In fact, immigration adds money to the treasury (European immigration netted the treasury £20 billion from 2000 - 2011).

Brand says there's plenty of money out there, in bonuses, avoided taxes, corporate exploitation etc. basically in corruption by the elite. So the problem actually lies in the corporate elite, not immigration.

The UK is not 'overcrowded'. I know it's not the full story, but the UK ranks 51st most densely populated nation according to Wikipedia. LINK

From about 6:30 on, he says "... try this, for 2 years, turn your focus to corruption in the city. Turn your focus to apathetic politicians..."

I totally agree with him. Immigration is the scapegoat, the distraction that allows corporations to continue their evil ways.

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I think you completely miss the point, and I think Russell Brand is spot on.

The cuts we are experiencing (health, police, education, armed services etc) are not because of immigration. In fact, immigration adds money to the treasury (European immigration netted the treasury £20 billion from 2000 - 2011).

Brand says there's plenty of money out there, in bonuses, avoided taxes, corporate exploitation etc. basically in corruption by the elite. So the problem actually lies in the corporate elite, not immigration.

The UK is not 'overcrowded'. I know it's not the full story, but the UK ranks 51st most densely populated nation according to Wikipedia. LINK

From about 6:30 on, he says "... try this, for 2 years, turn your focus to corruption in the city. Turn your focus to apathetic politicians..."

I totally agree with him. Immigration is the scapegoat, the distraction that allows corporations to continue their evil ways.

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Casey Casey (1069 days ago)

Immigrants may add money to the treasury but they do that by taking jobs from ordinary Brits who would then go on the dole...I wonder if that's included in the "Net benefit"? Again this is a huge red herring being played out all over the world by all bankrupt govts. "The rich aren't paying their fare share" and the plebs fall for it every time. Never mind that even if everyone paid what some people think they should it would never even come close to making up for the waste and mismanagement we see around the world. Politicians vote the,selves wage raises, special benefits like health care and pension plans completely seperate from the rest of us, that should tell you something about the way they are. More taxes means less growth with the net effect meaning we're all worse off.

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Immigrants may add money to the treasury but they do that by taking jobs from ordinary Brits who would then go on the dole...I wonder if that's included in the "Net benefit"? Again this is a huge red herring being played out all over the world by all bankrupt govts. "The rich aren't paying their fare share" and the plebs fall for it every time. Never mind that even if everyone paid what some people think they should it would never even come close to making up for the waste and mismanagement we see around the world. Politicians vote the,selves wage raises, special benefits like health care and pension plans completely seperate from the rest of us, that should tell you something about the way they are. More taxes means less growth with the net effect meaning we're all worse off.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1069 days ago)

" Immigrants may add money to the treasury but they do that by taking jobs from ordinary Brits who would then go on the dole ".

Probably not. A 2014 report by 'Centre for Entrepreneurs' showed that 14% of start-up businesses in the UK were founded by immigrant entrepreneurs. 456,073 immigrant entrepreneurs working in the UK have founded 464,527 businesses which employ 8.3m people. LINK

The report also says that immigrants are more likely to start businesses than native Britons and are likely to do so at a younger age. 17.2% of non-UK nationals have started their own business as opposed to only 10.4% of Britons.

As a libertarian, I would have thought you'd support relaxing border controls and letting the market decide who gets employed. After all, borders are a government regulation.

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" Immigrants may add money to the treasury but they do that by taking jobs from ordinary Brits who would then go on the dole ".

Probably not. A 2014 report by 'Centre for Entrepreneurs' showed that 14% of start-up businesses in the UK were founded by immigrant entrepreneurs. 456,073 immigrant entrepreneurs working in the UK have founded 464,527 businesses which employ 8.3m people. LINK

The report also says that immigrants are more likely to start businesses than native Britons and are likely to do so at a younger age. 17.2% of non-UK nationals have started their own business as opposed to only 10.4% of Britons.

As a libertarian, I would have thought you'd support relaxing border controls and letting the market decide who gets employed. After all, borders are a government regulation.

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cengland0 cengland0 (1068 days ago)

But as a consumer, you are looking for goods and services. When you made a decision to purchase, only one person is going to get that money. If that immigrant got your money for the goods or service then some non-immigrant didn’t get it.

It is slightly different if you need orange pickers and all the oranges are going bad because you don’t have anybody locally to pick them. Then you get labor from across the border and then the labor is available and the oranges now get picked. This is what happens in the USA.

Farmers lost 25% of their apples because of a labor shortage. “The national crackdown on illegal immigration has shrunk the pool of potential farm workers”

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But as a consumer, you are looking for goods and services. When you made a decision to purchase, only one person is going to get that money. If that immigrant got your money for the goods or service then some non-immigrant didn’t get it.

It is slightly different if you need orange pickers and all the oranges are going bad because you don’t have anybody locally to pick them. Then you get labor from across the border and then the labor is available and the oranges now get picked. This is what happens in the USA.

Farmers lost 25% of their apples because of a labor shortage. “The national crackdown on illegal immigration has shrunk the pool of potential farm workers”

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1068 days ago)

" When you made a decision to purchase, only one person is going to get that money... " What is this, a new business model?

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" When you made a decision to purchase, only one person is going to get that money... " What is this, a new business model?

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cengland0 cengland0 (1068 days ago)

It was in reference to the amount of money that they are bringing into the treasury. You forget that it most likely shifts which company gets the consumer’s money and does not necessarily increase the cash flow.

For example, if we have an immigrant setup a shop for doing manicures in our area, would that increase the cash flow or would it just cause other people that do manicures to lose money because with competition, the customer makes a choice of going to one or the other — not both.

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It was in reference to the amount of money that they are bringing into the treasury. You forget that it most likely shifts which company gets the consumer’s money and does not necessarily increase the cash flow.

For example, if we have an immigrant setup a shop for doing manicures in our area, would that increase the cash flow or would it just cause other people that do manicures to lose money because with competition, the customer makes a choice of going to one or the other — not both.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1068 days ago)

The research took taxes paid by European immigrants, and subtracted state benefits they received. Result, the treasury netted £20 billion from 2000 - 2011. LINK

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The research took taxes paid by European immigrants, and subtracted state benefits they received. Result, the treasury netted £20 billion from 2000 - 2011. LINK

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cengland0 cengland0 (1068 days ago)

But they forgot to subtract the taxes that were not paid by the competition.

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But they forgot to subtract the taxes that were not paid by the competition.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1068 days ago)

You really are clutching at straws. You are assuming one immigrant job replaces one Brit job. Which is simply not true. Even Migration Watch, which is an anti-immigration think tank, could only come up with 1 British job lost for every 13 immigrant jobs.

Of course immigrants compete with Brits for jobs, but they also fill jobs Brits don't want to do, and fill skill shortages. 26% of our NHS doctors are immigrants. Immigrants also start businesses, creating jobs (refer to my earlier comment where 456,073 immigrant entrepreneurs created 8.3 million jobs).

An interesting finding from the research: "The study, the Fiscal Impact of Immigration to the UK, published in the Economic Journal, reveals that more than 60% of new migrants from western and southern Europe are now university graduates. The educational levels of east Europeans who come to Britain are also improving with 25% of recent arrivals having completed a degree compared with 24% of the UK-born workforce."

As a libertarian, why don't you support relaxing immigration control and letting the market decide? After all, you apply that philosophy to everything else.

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You really are clutching at straws. You are assuming one immigrant job replaces one Brit job. Which is simply not true. Even Migration Watch, which is an anti-immigration think tank, could only come up with 1 British job lost for every 13 immigrant jobs.

Of course immigrants compete with Brits for jobs, but they also fill jobs Brits don't want to do, and fill skill shortages. 26% of our NHS doctors are immigrants. Immigrants also start businesses, creating jobs (refer to my earlier comment where 456,073 immigrant entrepreneurs created 8.3 million jobs).

An interesting finding from the research: "The study, the Fiscal Impact of Immigration to the UK, published in the Economic Journal, reveals that more than 60% of new migrants from western and southern Europe are now university graduates. The educational levels of east Europeans who come to Britain are also improving with 25% of recent arrivals having completed a degree compared with 24% of the UK-born workforce."

As a libertarian, why don't you support relaxing immigration control and letting the market decide? After all, you apply that philosophy to everything else.

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cengland0 cengland0 (1068 days ago)

I'm all for letting companies go outside the country to get labor there. But to have an undocumented worker sneak into our country illegally and take jobs illegally is a whole different story.

Everyone wants their products to be cheaper and most people would be upset if an iPhone was twice the price. The facts of life are that labor inside the country is more expensive due to minimum wage policies, benefit policies, OSHA, and other labor laws.

My company hires skilled labor from other countries too. Many of our technical people come from India and they all have university degrees. For them to get a Visa, we have to show that there are no qualified people here that can do the job and that is why we go outside the country. I suppose that only applies if the worker comes into the country and not if we outsource it and they continue to work in their own country.

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I'm all for letting companies go outside the country to get labor there. But to have an undocumented worker sneak into our country illegally and take jobs illegally is a whole different story.

Everyone wants their products to be cheaper and most people would be upset if an iPhone was twice the price. The facts of life are that labor inside the country is more expensive due to minimum wage policies, benefit policies, OSHA, and other labor laws.

My company hires skilled labor from other countries too. Many of our technical people come from India and they all have university degrees. For them to get a Visa, we have to show that there are no qualified people here that can do the job and that is why we go outside the country. I suppose that only applies if the worker comes into the country and not if we outsource it and they continue to work in their own country.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1068 days ago)

So do you now accept that immigration in the UK is economically beneficial for the treasury?

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So do you now accept that immigration in the UK is economically beneficial for the treasury?

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Guest: originalmad (1068 days ago)

Controlled immigration is, but at the moment we are the softest touch in the world, Simply introducing laws like australia's system and limiting access to social security until you've earned it will work wonders. If this doesn't happen,then look forward to the Ukip candidate becoming your local mp

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Controlled immigration is, but at the moment we are the softest touch in the world, Simply introducing laws like australia's system and limiting access to social security until you've earned it will work wonders. If this doesn't happen,then look forward to the Ukip candidate becoming your local mp

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Guest: (1068 days ago)

everyone is assuming that people don't have social help and jobs in there original country. its hype from media. eg nearly every country in europe was worried about Romania but the country is small so even if everyone one left it would not be a problem. but people love to live in there own country and some love to move around. how many enjoyed the benefits of leaving the uk to live else were

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everyone is assuming that people don't have social help and jobs in there original country. its hype from media. eg nearly every country in europe was worried about Romania but the country is small so even if everyone one left it would not be a problem. but people love to live in there own country and some love to move around. how many enjoyed the benefits of leaving the uk to live else were

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cengland0 cengland0 (1068 days ago)

I agree wtih OriginalMad about it being controlled with Visas. If it is uncontrolled, you will get all the poor people coming into the country to reep the beneftis the democrats are so happy to provide to the lazy people.

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I agree wtih OriginalMad about it being controlled with Visas. If it is uncontrolled, you will get all the poor people coming into the country to reep the beneftis the democrats are so happy to provide to the lazy people.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1068 days ago)

Do you accept that immigration in the UK is economically beneficial for the treasury?

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Do you accept that immigration in the UK is economically beneficial for the treasury?

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cengland0 cengland0 (1067 days ago)

Not without more proof.

Show me the yearly trend of the treasury and then an increase in the money received after a million immigrants arrive and then I will believe. My assumption without proof is that money is being paid by those immigrants but then less money is being paid by their competition. It is a wash financially but since there are more people using the limited resources, it's a net negative to the economy.

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Not without more proof.

Show me the yearly trend of the treasury and then an increase in the money received after a million immigrants arrive and then I will believe. My assumption without proof is that money is being paid by those immigrants but then less money is being paid by their competition. It is a wash financially but since there are more people using the limited resources, it's a net negative to the economy.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1067 days ago)

So the only 'proof' you have to back up your view are your assumptions.

Whereas against are at least 2 comprehensive studies by respectable institutions that suggest the opposite.

Shouldn't your answer be "Not sure. In the light of new information, I have serious doubts about my current position that UK immigration is negative for the treasury"?

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Original comment

So the only 'proof' you have to back up your view are your assumptions.

Whereas against are at least 2 comprehensive studies by respectable institutions that suggest the opposite.

Shouldn't your answer be "Not sure. In the light of new information, I have serious doubts about my current position that UK immigration is negative for the treasury"?

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cengland0 cengland0 (1067 days ago)

You are right that my answer is “Not Sure” but my default position is to not believe anything without proof. Sure you can say whatever you want and try to convince me but I see too many holes in your hypothesis (and I mentioned them already) that makes me not believe it fully.

So, until you provide proof that allowing unlimited immigration into the UK is good for the economy, I will not believe it.

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Original comment

You are right that my answer is “Not Sure” but my default position is to not believe anything without proof. Sure you can say whatever you want and try to convince me but I see too many holes in your hypothesis (and I mentioned them already) that makes me not believe it fully.

So, until you provide proof that allowing unlimited immigration into the UK is good for the economy, I will not believe it.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1067 days ago)

Great you've moved from 'not' to 'not sure'.

How do you choose your default position? After all, it's reasonable to assume that immigrants are more motivated, more likely to start a business, more likely to go into higher education - than locals, therefore creating more jobs and revenue for the treasury - because they travel between countries, even continents to better their lives leaving everythiong they know behind. And the reports support that position.

Should'n't you switch your default position, and look out for evidence that contradicts it. That makes a lot more sense doesn't it? After all, there is nothing to support your position except your assumptions.

It's certainly a much more efficient way to reach the most likely truth.

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Original comment

Great you've moved from 'not' to 'not sure'.

How do you choose your default position? After all, it's reasonable to assume that immigrants are more motivated, more likely to start a business, more likely to go into higher education - than locals, therefore creating more jobs and revenue for the treasury - because they travel between countries, even continents to better their lives leaving everythiong they know behind. And the reports support that position.

Should'n't you switch your default position, and look out for evidence that contradicts it. That makes a lot more sense doesn't it? After all, there is nothing to support your position except your assumptions.

It's certainly a much more efficient way to reach the most likely truth.

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cengland0 cengland0 (1067 days ago)

“How do you choose your default position?” Easy. I look at everything with a skeptical eye. Then if it doesn’t sound right, I don’t believe it or have no opinion. If there is any evidence for the contrary then I definitely don’t believe it until there is proof provided that shows it is true.

One example is with religion. I’m an atheist because the biblical story doesn’t sound right. There were many flaws in the story to make me become skeptical. Then there was evidence to the contrary like the theory of evolution. So now my default position on religion is to disbelieve it unless someone can prove that a god does exist.

“immigrants are more motivated, more likely to start a business, more likely to go into higher education - than locals”. I do not believe that. If they have a Visa, it might be true; however, I have seen the opposite side by seeing the many state benefits provided by Mrs. cengland0 and her line of work. We have a lot of Mexicans in our country doing contracting work like roofing. I would venture a guess to say that the overwhelming majority of the Mexicans that came over to work do not have a university degree. The problem with your figures that you come out with are those that came over to the USA legally with a Visa and are taking jobs that local citizens did not qualify for. Those would be physicians (we have a shortage of them), computer programmers, and medical scientists. There are some top-notch universities in countries like India that pours out a lot of physicians, computer programmers, and medical scientists. The people know if they get that degree, they can come to the USA and make a lot of money compared to what they can make in their own country. Talking to my friends in India, they tell me that there are very few good doctors there because the majority of them to to the USA and then when they retire, they go back to India to be with their family. They are no longer working at that time so they do not provide any services.

If you look at the millions of undocumented immigrants, that reduces the percentages with degrees significantly. Many of them are not motivated unless you consider being motivated is living off our generous system provided by the democrats.

“look out for evidence that contradicts it.” It may not contradict but the proof could be misleading and when you seek out clarification, it’s not a direct contradiction but you can see where the facts have been skewed to make it look like something it isn’t.

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Original comment

“How do you choose your default position?” Easy. I look at everything with a skeptical eye. Then if it doesn’t sound right, I don’t believe it or have no opinion. If there is any evidence for the contrary then I definitely don’t believe it until there is proof provided that shows it is true.

One example is with religion. I’m an atheist because the biblical story doesn’t sound right. There were many flaws in the story to make me become skeptical. Then there was evidence to the contrary like the theory of evolution. So now my default position on religion is to disbelieve it unless someone can prove that a god does exist.

“immigrants are more motivated, more likely to start a business, more likely to go into higher education - than locals”. I do not believe that. If they have a Visa, it might be true; however, I have seen the opposite side by seeing the many state benefits provided by Mrs. cengland0 and her line of work. We have a lot of Mexicans in our country doing contracting work like roofing. I would venture a guess to say that the overwhelming majority of the Mexicans that came over to work do not have a university degree. The problem with your figures that you come out with are those that came over to the USA legally with a Visa and are taking jobs that local citizens did not qualify for. Those would be physicians (we have a shortage of them), computer programmers, and medical scientists. There are some top-notch universities in countries like India that pours out a lot of physicians, computer programmers, and medical scientists. The people know if they get that degree, they can come to the USA and make a lot of money compared to what they can make in their own country. Talking to my friends in India, they tell me that there are very few good doctors there because the majority of them to to the USA and then when they retire, they go back to India to be with their family. They are no longer working at that time so they do not provide any services.

If you look at the millions of undocumented immigrants, that reduces the percentages with degrees significantly. Many of them are not motivated unless you consider being motivated is living off our generous system provided by the democrats.

“look out for evidence that contradicts it.” It may not contradict but the proof could be misleading and when you seek out clarification, it’s not a direct contradiction but you can see where the facts have been skewed to make it look like something it isn’t.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (1067 days ago)

I see your problem now. " Then if it doesn’t sound right, I don’t believe it or have no opinion. "

Sounding right has nothing to do with reality. Quantum theory and Special Relativity don't sound right, but the evidence shows they are correct, until some conflicting evidence comes along.

As for climate change, there is no confliting evidence. There is plenty of evidence we don't fully understand but none conflict with the overwhelming consensus that humans are largely responsible for climate change.

Not sure why you think pumping billions of tons of CO2 relentlessly into the atmosphere every year, sounds wrong that it should have an effect on the climate. Really, you expect no effect?

I have systematically destroyed every point you have come up with on climate change, and now that you've run out of points, you just shut up, rather than change your default position. That's not education. That's just arrogance and ignorance. Does it not matter to you that your views are probably wrong?

As with UK immigration, I have produced some evidence, you have produced nothing that conflicts, and you are basing your view on the assumption that 1 immigrant job replaces 1 Brit job, which is obviously way too simplistic and not true. So even when your assumptions are ridiculous, you will stiil not change you default view.

So unless you change your thinking, you are bound to be wrong a lot, because you will only be right by coincidence - that you happened to have chosen the correct assumption in the first place.

ReplyVote up (174)down (146)
Original comment

I see your problem now. " Then if it doesn’t sound right, I don’t believe it or have no opinion. "

Sounding right has nothing to do with reality. Quantum theory and Special Relativity don't sound right, but the evidence shows they are correct, until some conflicting evidence comes along.

As for climate change, there is no confliting evidence. There is plenty of evidence we don't fully understand but none conflict with the overwhelming consensus that humans are largely responsible for climate change.

Not sure why you think pumping billions of tons of CO2 relentlessly into the atmosphere every year, sounds wrong that it should have an effect on the climate. Really, you expect no effect?

I have systematically destroyed every point you have come up with on climate change, and now that you've run out of points, you just shut up, rather than change your default position. That's not education. That's just arrogance and ignorance. Does it not matter to you that your views are probably wrong?

As with UK immigration, I have produced some evidence, you have produced nothing that conflicts, and you are basing your view on the assumption that 1 immigrant job replaces 1 Brit job, which is obviously way too simplistic and not true. So even when your assumptions are ridiculous, you will stiil not change you default view.

So unless you change your thinking, you are bound to be wrong a lot, because you will only be right by coincidence - that you happened to have chosen the correct assumption in the first place.

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