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Russell Brand - Black Cabs vs Uber

Russell Brand - Black Cabs vs Uber

(8:20) Black cabbie Courtney explains the Uber vs Black Cabs conflict.

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WalterEgo WalterEgo (817 days ago)

I know everybody hates Russell Brand, but that really helped me understand the Black Cab/Uber issue better.

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I know everybody hates Russell Brand, but that really helped me understand the Black Cab/Uber issue better.

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Blong Blong (815 days ago)

Google are involved because they want to be the first with self-driving cabs.

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Google are involved because they want to be the first with self-driving cabs.

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Casey Casey (817 days ago)

Taxi prices in London are amongst the most expensive in the world, they are in need of competition. The scaremongering of being ripped off is just that, scaremongering, has nobody been ripped off in a black cab?

And of course everybody is so worried about everybody else not paying their "fair share" of taxes, not a mention of how those taxes are spent. The world is awash in govt. debt and they are making things worse with their relentless search for money. More money for govt. means less for the people, it's as simple as that.

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Taxi prices in London are amongst the most expensive in the world, they are in need of competition. The scaremongering of being ripped off is just that, scaremongering, has nobody been ripped off in a black cab?

And of course everybody is so worried about everybody else not paying their "fair share" of taxes, not a mention of how those taxes are spent. The world is awash in govt. debt and they are making things worse with their relentless search for money. More money for govt. means less for the people, it's as simple as that.

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TheBob TheBob (817 days ago)

Prices for anything in London are amongst the most expensive in the world: that's the way it is.

And there was already competition for cabs: "mini-cabs" (pre-booked) against black cabs that you flag down.

Black cabs are more expensive as

- they have to do "the knowledge" and actually know their way around and the best way from A to B (not faff about with satnav taking the most direct but congested route)
- they are licensed, so you know they are registered and tested, (not someone who might decide to take your daughter somewhere dark so they can mug and rape her)
- you know the black cab is insured and you won't discover the uber driver has no insurance after the accident that takes you off work for 3 months.
- you know the cab is tested and safe, so you won't break down on the way or have the brakes fail.

Do you also advocate "uber doctors and dentists" who are much cheaper because they don't need the training or back up - but can competently google your symptoms?

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Prices for anything in London are amongst the most expensive in the world: that's the way it is.

And there was already competition for cabs: "mini-cabs" (pre-booked) against black cabs that you flag down.

Black cabs are more expensive as

- they have to do "the knowledge" and actually know their way around and the best way from A to B (not faff about with satnav taking the most direct but congested route)
- they are licensed, so you know they are registered and tested, (not someone who might decide to take your daughter somewhere dark so they can mug and rape her)
- you know the black cab is insured and you won't discover the uber driver has no insurance after the accident that takes you off work for 3 months.
- you know the cab is tested and safe, so you won't break down on the way or have the brakes fail.

Do you also advocate "uber doctors and dentists" who are much cheaper because they don't need the training or back up - but can competently google your symptoms?

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Guest: (817 days ago)

Driving a car shouldn't be compared to the training needs of a doctor. Nearly everyone knows how to drive but few can replace someone's heart.

Using Uber is more like asking your brother or sister to drive you somewhere. The Uber drivers are licensed and tested too. That is why they are issued drivers licenses.

Who cares if they know the best way to get someplace when you are getting to your destination eventually at a much more affordable price.

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Driving a car shouldn't be compared to the training needs of a doctor. Nearly everyone knows how to drive but few can replace someone's heart.

Using Uber is more like asking your brother or sister to drive you somewhere. The Uber drivers are licensed and tested too. That is why they are issued drivers licenses.

Who cares if they know the best way to get someplace when you are getting to your destination eventually at a much more affordable price.

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TheBob TheBob (817 days ago)

If affordable price is your only criterion, then you can walk, take a bus, use the underground (or overground), hire a Boris Bike or hop on one leg. Loads of ways.

"The knowledge" is not just learning to drive, it is a detailed knowledge of routes and points of interest. If I need to catch a train or get to an appointment on time then I care very much if my driver is competent about finding the best way depending on time of day and traffic conditions. I can flag down a cab anywhere in London and ask to be taken anywhere else feeling confident that the cabbie's eta is pretty accurate.

When I get into a black cab, I know the driver is healthy (good eyesight, appropriately fit, not epileptic or a drug addict waiting for their next fix), is of good character (not a thief, rapist or mugger), is an experienced driver (not someone with points on their licence) and is insured in case of an accident.

You know none of these with an uber driver.

Yes I can travel more cheaply on the bus, but there are times when I'm happy to pay for that good service and security.

Oh, and most doctors can't replace a heart either.

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If affordable price is your only criterion, then you can walk, take a bus, use the underground (or overground), hire a Boris Bike or hop on one leg. Loads of ways.

"The knowledge" is not just learning to drive, it is a detailed knowledge of routes and points of interest. If I need to catch a train or get to an appointment on time then I care very much if my driver is competent about finding the best way depending on time of day and traffic conditions. I can flag down a cab anywhere in London and ask to be taken anywhere else feeling confident that the cabbie's eta is pretty accurate.

When I get into a black cab, I know the driver is healthy (good eyesight, appropriately fit, not epileptic or a drug addict waiting for their next fix), is of good character (not a thief, rapist or mugger), is an experienced driver (not someone with points on their licence) and is insured in case of an accident.

You know none of these with an uber driver.

Yes I can travel more cheaply on the bus, but there are times when I'm happy to pay for that good service and security.

Oh, and most doctors can't replace a heart either.

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Guest: ProUber (817 days ago)

"If I need to catch a train or get to an appointment on time" then you have the ability to take a cab if you want but don't try to get rid of a cheaper option for those people who plan ahead of time so they are not rushed.

"I know the driver is healthy (good eyesight, appropriately fit," Do you? Is there a fitness requirement to be a cabbie? What is the worst BMI allowed? What if you have heart disease in the family, does that mean you can never be a cabbie? Regarding eyesight, the standard testing takes care of that and everyone needs to pass an eyesight test.

"or a drug addict waiting for their next fix" How often do they take drug tests? If they smoked pot the day after the test, would that be picked up in that urine test?

"is of good character (not a thief, rapist or mugger)" I'm sure cabbies have never committed any crimes.

"is an experienced driver (not someone with points on their licence) and is insured in case of an accident." Obviously if that's what you do for a living, you have more experience doing it. Not sure what the laws are over in the UK but over here, it's illegal to drive a car without insurance. If you are pulled over for any infraction, they need your license, registration, and proof of insurance.

At least there is a choice. If you want to pay more for experience, you have that option. If you want to save money and have a licensed and insured person drive you, that's another option. Let the people choose which one they want to use. If more people use Uber then cabbies, then they are speaking with their wallet and the best service will come out on top. More users of Uber means they don't care about the trivial differences but like to save the money.

Here's a case against black cabs. LINK

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Original comment

"If I need to catch a train or get to an appointment on time" then you have the ability to take a cab if you want but don't try to get rid of a cheaper option for those people who plan ahead of time so they are not rushed.

"I know the driver is healthy (good eyesight, appropriately fit," Do you? Is there a fitness requirement to be a cabbie? What is the worst BMI allowed? What if you have heart disease in the family, does that mean you can never be a cabbie? Regarding eyesight, the standard testing takes care of that and everyone needs to pass an eyesight test.

"or a drug addict waiting for their next fix" How often do they take drug tests? If they smoked pot the day after the test, would that be picked up in that urine test?

"is of good character (not a thief, rapist or mugger)" I'm sure cabbies have never committed any crimes.

"is an experienced driver (not someone with points on their licence) and is insured in case of an accident." Obviously if that's what you do for a living, you have more experience doing it. Not sure what the laws are over in the UK but over here, it's illegal to drive a car without insurance. If you are pulled over for any infraction, they need your license, registration, and proof of insurance.

At least there is a choice. If you want to pay more for experience, you have that option. If you want to save money and have a licensed and insured person drive you, that's another option. Let the people choose which one they want to use. If more people use Uber then cabbies, then they are speaking with their wallet and the best service will come out on top. More users of Uber means they don't care about the trivial differences but like to save the money.

Here's a case against black cabs. LINK

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TheBob TheBob (817 days ago)

Are you really "Guest" above - but are now writing as ProUber? (There used to be a complete tosser on Boreme who was a documented liar and who used to post under pseuodonyms to peddle his perverted and ludicrous ideology. Luckily he said farewell to Boreme).

Point number 1 I was addressing Guest who only cared about getting to the destination "eventually". Who said anything about being rushed (apart from you). Black cabs usually offer a more predictable journey time for those of us who plan ahead.

Point 2. Yes there is

Point 3. More often than Uber drivers are required to.

Point 4. I'm glad you're sure cabbies have never committed any crimes. I'm not sure - but I do know they have to pass a CRB check

Point 5. The law is similar here in the UK. However, that does not stop people driving without insurance.... unless you are a black cab driver who cannot get a (separate) license to "ply for hire" without valid insurance.

And there was already plenty of choice about how to travel safely without opening the market to unregulated cowboys.

If market forces are so wonderful, why don't we scrap the need for qualifications and training - then open up the police, army, judiciary, dentists, teachers to the supposed benefits of deregulation?

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Original comment

Are you really "Guest" above - but are now writing as ProUber? (There used to be a complete tosser on Boreme who was a documented liar and who used to post under pseuodonyms to peddle his perverted and ludicrous ideology. Luckily he said farewell to Boreme).

Point number 1 I was addressing Guest who only cared about getting to the destination "eventually". Who said anything about being rushed (apart from you). Black cabs usually offer a more predictable journey time for those of us who plan ahead.

Point 2. Yes there is

Point 3. More often than Uber drivers are required to.

Point 4. I'm glad you're sure cabbies have never committed any crimes. I'm not sure - but I do know they have to pass a CRB check

Point 5. The law is similar here in the UK. However, that does not stop people driving without insurance.... unless you are a black cab driver who cannot get a (separate) license to "ply for hire" without valid insurance.

And there was already plenty of choice about how to travel safely without opening the market to unregulated cowboys.

If market forces are so wonderful, why don't we scrap the need for qualifications and training - then open up the police, army, judiciary, dentists, teachers to the supposed benefits of deregulation?

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Guest: ProUber (817 days ago)

Look closely, both messages are from guest. So is this one.

"Point 2. Yes there is" What are they?

" cannot get a (separate) license to 'ply for hire"' " It is the same here but once you get your license, you can cancel your insurance. People cancel all the time because they find better rates from various companies. You only need to show proof of insurance when you register your vehicle or are stopped by the police so they will not come tracking you down the day you cancel.

Besides, what do you need insurance for over there as a passenger? Your medical is free for except for a small co-pay. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just pay the co-pay than buy insurance which probably has a larger deductible?

You can be a teacher without certifications. You might not get a job with the state or a university without one but nothing stops you from being a piano teacher, private tutor, or teaching elderly how to use a computer. Very common in the private sector to use SMEs as teachers.

The others such as doctors and dentists (dentists are doctors over here) require special licenses to practice because of safety concerns. They can prescribe medication and cut into your body.

If you want to work for the police, they will teach you what you need to know. Same with the Army.

I never said anything about deregulation. I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm all for regulations in certain situations. It's just you think Uber drivers have zero regulations and that is not true.

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Look closely, both messages are from guest. So is this one.

"Point 2. Yes there is" What are they?

" cannot get a (separate) license to 'ply for hire"' " It is the same here but once you get your license, you can cancel your insurance. People cancel all the time because they find better rates from various companies. You only need to show proof of insurance when you register your vehicle or are stopped by the police so they will not come tracking you down the day you cancel.

Besides, what do you need insurance for over there as a passenger? Your medical is free for except for a small co-pay. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just pay the co-pay than buy insurance which probably has a larger deductible?

You can be a teacher without certifications. You might not get a job with the state or a university without one but nothing stops you from being a piano teacher, private tutor, or teaching elderly how to use a computer. Very common in the private sector to use SMEs as teachers.

The others such as doctors and dentists (dentists are doctors over here) require special licenses to practice because of safety concerns. They can prescribe medication and cut into your body.

If you want to work for the police, they will teach you what you need to know. Same with the Army.

I never said anything about deregulation. I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm all for regulations in certain situations. It's just you think Uber drivers have zero regulations and that is not true.

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TheBob TheBob (816 days ago)

Health checks? LINK

Insurance? Yes it would be cheaper (obviously an important criterion for you) - but I wouldn't be covered for loss of earnings for example if the driver had no insurance. Black cabbies have invested so much time and effort into their business they are unlikely to skimp on insurance. If they're caugt they lose their PCO licence. If they cancel their insurance every year just after taking it out, the insurance companies are bound to smell a rat.

And my point about the police, army and jusiciary et al. is there are circumstances when we recognise the cheapest option is no way to guarantee the best service. If you need heart surgery, is your chice of surgeon governed by who will do the operation at the lowest cost - or by some other criteria?

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Original comment

Health checks? LINK

Insurance? Yes it would be cheaper (obviously an important criterion for you) - but I wouldn't be covered for loss of earnings for example if the driver had no insurance. Black cabbies have invested so much time and effort into their business they are unlikely to skimp on insurance. If they're caugt they lose their PCO licence. If they cancel their insurance every year just after taking it out, the insurance companies are bound to smell a rat.

And my point about the police, army and jusiciary et al. is there are circumstances when we recognise the cheapest option is no way to guarantee the best service. If you need heart surgery, is your chice of surgeon governed by who will do the operation at the lowest cost - or by some other criteria?

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Guest: ProUber (816 days ago)

Cost is important when making a heart surgery decision.

Being in the UK, if you needed heart surgery, you would select the free NHS versus seeking out the best surgeon in the world. The travel expense alone would cost too much compared to your NHS co-pay.

If I lived in the USA, and my insurance would cover any doctor, I would find the best regardless of cost. However, insurance plans have "in network" and "out of network" options. The "in network" ones are usually covered but the others can provide better service.

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Cost is important when making a heart surgery decision.

Being in the UK, if you needed heart surgery, you would select the free NHS versus seeking out the best surgeon in the world. The travel expense alone would cost too much compared to your NHS co-pay.

If I lived in the USA, and my insurance would cover any doctor, I would find the best regardless of cost. However, insurance plans have "in network" and "out of network" options. The "in network" ones are usually covered but the others can provide better service.

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TheBob TheBob (816 days ago)

My point is that you probably work with other criteria than price. Yes - if I need a life-saving operation and I can only afford option B, I'll go with option B.

Let's try another tack. You could find somewhere cheaper to live, but probably don't want to go for it because it's further from your work or family, or has less space, or is by a noisier road - or is less appealing in some other way.

I'm suggesting price is not the overriding criterion. OK there will be places you can't afford (like next door to Mark Zuckerberg) but there will also be places that are cheaper to live that you don't want - so it's not a totally monetary decision.

I can eat more cheaply than I do, but choose to spend a bit more on better quality food.

Not all decisions are best made on cost (and I bet there are areas of your life that conform to that).

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My point is that you probably work with other criteria than price. Yes - if I need a life-saving operation and I can only afford option B, I'll go with option B.

Let's try another tack. You could find somewhere cheaper to live, but probably don't want to go for it because it's further from your work or family, or has less space, or is by a noisier road - or is less appealing in some other way.

I'm suggesting price is not the overriding criterion. OK there will be places you can't afford (like next door to Mark Zuckerberg) but there will also be places that are cheaper to live that you don't want - so it's not a totally monetary decision.

I can eat more cheaply than I do, but choose to spend a bit more on better quality food.

Not all decisions are best made on cost (and I bet there are areas of your life that conform to that).

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Guest: ProUber (816 days ago)

I have a cheap house because it's in a rural area instead of in the city. I'm further away from the amenities the city has to offer but I had to decide if that was worth paying extra for and it wasn't.

I don't believe anyone can live next to Zuckerberg. I heard he bought up all the properties around him so he could have his privacy. Did not fact check that.

Your food choices are just that, choices. Nobody is forcing you to eat an expensive diet. You have a limited amout of cash flow and you have to budget and prioritize what is most important to you. In your case, you feel eating a more expensive diet is more important. For me, I think paying more for a black cab is too much when I can get 95% of the same quality from a much cheaper service.

"Not all decisions are best made on cost (and I bet there are areas of your life that conform to that)." And then you would be wrong. I cannot think of any decision where cost was not part of the decision making process. House, car, electricity usage, water usage, places I visit costing gas, etc. They all are decided with cost as a factor.

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I have a cheap house because it's in a rural area instead of in the city. I'm further away from the amenities the city has to offer but I had to decide if that was worth paying extra for and it wasn't.

I don't believe anyone can live next to Zuckerberg. I heard he bought up all the properties around him so he could have his privacy. Did not fact check that.

Your food choices are just that, choices. Nobody is forcing you to eat an expensive diet. You have a limited amout of cash flow and you have to budget and prioritize what is most important to you. In your case, you feel eating a more expensive diet is more important. For me, I think paying more for a black cab is too much when I can get 95% of the same quality from a much cheaper service.

"Not all decisions are best made on cost (and I bet there are areas of your life that conform to that)." And then you would be wrong. I cannot think of any decision where cost was not part of the decision making process. House, car, electricity usage, water usage, places I visit costing gas, etc. They all are decided with cost as a factor.

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TheBob TheBob (815 days ago)

"Not all decisions are best made on cost."

The word you're missing out is "best". Yes, cost is a factor in most decisions but probably not the overriding factor in all your decisions.

You're not going to persuade me that all your decisions come only down to cost. Are you in a relationship? Did you choose your partner because s/he was the cheapest option? So, not all decisions are best made on cost (and I bet there are area of your life that conform to that)

And yes, we all make choices. A lot of my choices are around what I think of as ethical because I think they affect more than me and I want to behave according to principles I think are worthy. I'll pay a bit more to buy "fairtrade" goods because I want to support the growers more than I want to contribute to the profits of multi-nationals.

And I think black cabs v. Uber is in that ballpark as well, so (if I take a cab) I'll continue to use black cabs.

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Original comment

"Not all decisions are best made on cost."

The word you're missing out is "best". Yes, cost is a factor in most decisions but probably not the overriding factor in all your decisions.

You're not going to persuade me that all your decisions come only down to cost. Are you in a relationship? Did you choose your partner because s/he was the cheapest option? So, not all decisions are best made on cost (and I bet there are area of your life that conform to that)

And yes, we all make choices. A lot of my choices are around what I think of as ethical because I think they affect more than me and I want to behave according to principles I think are worthy. I'll pay a bit more to buy "fairtrade" goods because I want to support the growers more than I want to contribute to the profits of multi-nationals.

And I think black cabs v. Uber is in that ballpark as well, so (if I take a cab) I'll continue to use black cabs.

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Guest: ProUber (815 days ago)

I'm so proud of you that you think it's more ethical to use a black cab. You are paying extra money to help the economy. How wonderful of you to do that.

I will pay more for better quality or better service but it has to be significant enough to justify the increase in price. If I could hire a professional company to mow my lawn for $45 but the teenager down the street that is not a professional will do it for $40, I might still choose the pro because I don't have to babysit the project and I know it will be done right. However, if the teenager will do it for $10, I'm all for it. Even if s/he doesn't do a perfect job, the price difference is significant enough that I wouldn't care much.

Will I pay twice the price for vegetables to support a local farmer? No. I would be willing to pay more but only a little extra. If apples are $1.25/pound but I could get them for $1.30 from a local, I might do that if the quality of the product is the same. Just the other day I bought some maple syrup from a smaller company even though it costs a little more than the larger company just so I could support the smaller one.

I will not pay extra for organic because I have no issues with non-organic foods and I don't believe organic is healthier. If organic was the same price, I would buy it but it's significantly more expensive.

I am in a relationship and money does play a role in it. If she was erratic in her spending, I would have to dump her and get someone else. We both have similar spending habits so the relationship works. Most relationship fights are over finance, didn't you know that? Google that and you will see. Here's a single article but there are thousands of others: LINK

By the way, I don't use Uber and I don't use cabs because I own my own car. I did call a cab back in the 90's when my car broke down on the highway. I had to walk to a pay phone at a gas station to call them. If Uber was available at the time, it would have been much more convenient and affordable and would definitely have used that option.

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I'm so proud of you that you think it's more ethical to use a black cab. You are paying extra money to help the economy. How wonderful of you to do that.

I will pay more for better quality or better service but it has to be significant enough to justify the increase in price. If I could hire a professional company to mow my lawn for $45 but the teenager down the street that is not a professional will do it for $40, I might still choose the pro because I don't have to babysit the project and I know it will be done right. However, if the teenager will do it for $10, I'm all for it. Even if s/he doesn't do a perfect job, the price difference is significant enough that I wouldn't care much.

Will I pay twice the price for vegetables to support a local farmer? No. I would be willing to pay more but only a little extra. If apples are $1.25/pound but I could get them for $1.30 from a local, I might do that if the quality of the product is the same. Just the other day I bought some maple syrup from a smaller company even though it costs a little more than the larger company just so I could support the smaller one.

I will not pay extra for organic because I have no issues with non-organic foods and I don't believe organic is healthier. If organic was the same price, I would buy it but it's significantly more expensive.

I am in a relationship and money does play a role in it. If she was erratic in her spending, I would have to dump her and get someone else. We both have similar spending habits so the relationship works. Most relationship fights are over finance, didn't you know that? Google that and you will see. Here's a single article but there are thousands of others: LINK

By the way, I don't use Uber and I don't use cabs because I own my own car. I did call a cab back in the 90's when my car broke down on the highway. I had to walk to a pay phone at a gas station to call them. If Uber was available at the time, it would have been much more convenient and affordable and would definitely have used that option.

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TheBob TheBob (815 days ago)

"I'm so proud of you that you think it's more ethical to use a black cab. You are paying extra money to help the economy. How wonderful of you to do that. "

Thanks

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"I'm so proud of you that you think it's more ethical to use a black cab. You are paying extra money to help the economy. How wonderful of you to do that. "

Thanks

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Casey Casey (817 days ago)

Funny you should mention uber doctor LINK

the rest of your argument is fear mongering, scared it's not regulated, as if that really stopped anything, fear of breaking down, fear of being attacked...do you even get outside?

Oh, and so much for your vetted, regulated safe black cab drivers LINK

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Funny you should mention uber doctor LINK

the rest of your argument is fear mongering, scared it's not regulated, as if that really stopped anything, fear of breaking down, fear of being attacked...do you even get outside?

Oh, and so much for your vetted, regulated safe black cab drivers LINK

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Guest: (816 days ago)

By licensed, he meant licensed to rape.

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By licensed, he meant licensed to rape.

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TheBob TheBob (816 days ago)

I bet I can google more links to criminal uber drivers than you can find criminal black cab drivers.

And of course regulation has never stopped anything 100% - but it does reduce the volume

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I bet I can google more links to criminal uber drivers than you can find criminal black cab drivers.

And of course regulation has never stopped anything 100% - but it does reduce the volume

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Casey Casey (816 days ago)

Go ahead, of course you'd have to limit those uber drivers to London for it to make any real comparison but I think there probably have been more people murdered and raped by London black cab drivers than London Uber drivers. As for regulation how does that stop anything? How do you measure that? Bad people do bad things regardless of regulations. Regulations are only a hinderance to good people who feel obliged(forced) to obey the law.

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Go ahead, of course you'd have to limit those uber drivers to London for it to make any real comparison but I think there probably have been more people murdered and raped by London black cab drivers than London Uber drivers. As for regulation how does that stop anything? How do you measure that? Bad people do bad things regardless of regulations. Regulations are only a hinderance to good people who feel obliged(forced) to obey the law.

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TheBob TheBob (816 days ago)

and of course you'd have to allow for the fact that (motorised) black cabs have been around since the early 1900s and uber has only been around for a couple of years.

Regulation works firstly by setting standards then by having a body monitor and police those standards. It won't stop every case of poor practice, but improves the overall standard.

Rather than thinking of the state imposing itself on poor individuals, think of it more that the community agrees this is a good way of behaving with each other.Like the Tragedy of the Commons

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and of course you'd have to allow for the fact that (motorised) black cabs have been around since the early 1900s and uber has only been around for a couple of years.

Regulation works firstly by setting standards then by having a body monitor and police those standards. It won't stop every case of poor practice, but improves the overall standard.

Rather than thinking of the state imposing itself on poor individuals, think of it more that the community agrees this is a good way of behaving with each other.Like the Tragedy of the Commons

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Casey Casey (816 days ago)

So, getting back to the original argument, we can see that neither riding in a black cab or Uber cab is going to garauntee you a safe ride, in other words the fear of being attacked by an uber driver is just fearmongering.

"Regulation works firstly by setting standards then by having a body monitor and police those standards." Ahh beurocracy, the answer to all our problems, which places an unnecessary burden on the individual and small business and never gets smaller, only bigger and more of a burden. And people wonder why business start ups are at an all time low.....and of course the fees, taxes, compliances etc. all cost money and people wonder why things are so expensive....good people don't break the law intentionally and generally interact peacefully and correctly with each other. There are many examples of this all over the world, just look at where they've taken down traffic lights at busy intersections to see how the average person behaves towards each other. Regulations don't stop bad people doing bad things but they do stop good people from reaching their full potential. There are over 3000 new laws passed every year in the land of the free...how does that help anyone?

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So, getting back to the original argument, we can see that neither riding in a black cab or Uber cab is going to garauntee you a safe ride, in other words the fear of being attacked by an uber driver is just fearmongering.

"Regulation works firstly by setting standards then by having a body monitor and police those standards." Ahh beurocracy, the answer to all our problems, which places an unnecessary burden on the individual and small business and never gets smaller, only bigger and more of a burden. And people wonder why business start ups are at an all time low.....and of course the fees, taxes, compliances etc. all cost money and people wonder why things are so expensive....good people don't break the law intentionally and generally interact peacefully and correctly with each other. There are many examples of this all over the world, just look at where they've taken down traffic lights at busy intersections to see how the average person behaves towards each other. Regulations don't stop bad people doing bad things but they do stop good people from reaching their full potential. There are over 3000 new laws passed every year in the land of the free...how does that help anyone?

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TheBob TheBob (815 days ago)

I think we probably agree on a lot: unbridled bureaucracy is at one (bad) end of the spectrum - and rampant social darwinism is at the other (bad) end. My guess is we're both somewhere between those points and we're discussing where to draw the line.

Are you American, Casey? What's your take on The Jungle by Upton Sinclair? Did society benefit more from from total laissez faire in the Chicago meat industry or was it an improvement to have some outside intervention to improve food standards and working conditions?

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I think we probably agree on a lot: unbridled bureaucracy is at one (bad) end of the spectrum - and rampant social darwinism is at the other (bad) end. My guess is we're both somewhere between those points and we're discussing where to draw the line.

Are you American, Casey? What's your take on The Jungle by Upton Sinclair? Did society benefit more from from total laissez faire in the Chicago meat industry or was it an improvement to have some outside intervention to improve food standards and working conditions?

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Casey Casey (815 days ago)

You may be right Bob, but may differ on how to get there. The truth is I use this forum, and a few others, to try and solidify or test what I have come to believe against other different forms of thinking. I'm not an American, I've lived in 3 countries for approximately a third of my 60 years each and have started successful businesses in each one. I know spend most of my time in Asia.

from what I've just googled The Jungle is a fictional work purportedly based (very), loosely on conditions at the time. A story where virtually all that could go wrong did go wrong. Not having lived through that era I can't really comment but I did find this article very interesting LINK

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You may be right Bob, but may differ on how to get there. The truth is I use this forum, and a few others, to try and solidify or test what I have come to believe against other different forms of thinking. I'm not an American, I've lived in 3 countries for approximately a third of my 60 years each and have started successful businesses in each one. I know spend most of my time in Asia.

from what I've just googled The Jungle is a fictional work purportedly based (very), loosely on conditions at the time. A story where virtually all that could go wrong did go wrong. Not having lived through that era I can't really comment but I did find this article very interesting LINK

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Casey Casey (817 days ago)

Funny you should mention uber doctor LINK

the rest of your argument is fear mongering, scared it's not regulated, as if that really stopped anything, fear of breaking down, fear of being attacked...do you even get outside?

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Funny you should mention uber doctor LINK

the rest of your argument is fear mongering, scared it's not regulated, as if that really stopped anything, fear of breaking down, fear of being attacked...do you even get outside?

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Guest: Bryn (815 days ago)

Nonsense.

The UK NHS - which spends "Government" money (ie my tax money gathered by the Government and spent on services for me) achieves economies of scale and effects of long-term planning (because it isn't there to make a quick profit) which result in an overall health-care spend of about 10% of the UKs GDP. If they didn't take this money from me (and all the other UK taxpayers) I'd spend more on healthcare - the evidence of which is that no healthcare system in which "the people" spend their own money on the same care gets anywhere near as low as 10%. And even then the total spend is kept lower than it would be because many people don't go to their doctor because it is too expensive. In Denmark (which has a mixed system) 40% of the population reported not attending their doctor for significant conditions in 2013-14 because of the cost. In the UK it's a small fraction of that - and it's cheaper for "the people" as a whole.

The truth is that there are some things which the private sector does best and some which good Government institutions do best - and we need the right mix.

It's not capitalism that stinks. It's not socialism that stinks. It's enforcing any ideology over experience and common sense that stinks.

What do we want? Common sense! When do we want it? Now!

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Nonsense.

The UK NHS - which spends "Government" money (ie my tax money gathered by the Government and spent on services for me) achieves economies of scale and effects of long-term planning (because it isn't there to make a quick profit) which result in an overall health-care spend of about 10% of the UKs GDP. If they didn't take this money from me (and all the other UK taxpayers) I'd spend more on healthcare - the evidence of which is that no healthcare system in which "the people" spend their own money on the same care gets anywhere near as low as 10%. And even then the total spend is kept lower than it would be because many people don't go to their doctor because it is too expensive. In Denmark (which has a mixed system) 40% of the population reported not attending their doctor for significant conditions in 2013-14 because of the cost. In the UK it's a small fraction of that - and it's cheaper for "the people" as a whole.

The truth is that there are some things which the private sector does best and some which good Government institutions do best - and we need the right mix.

It's not capitalism that stinks. It's not socialism that stinks. It's enforcing any ideology over experience and common sense that stinks.

What do we want? Common sense! When do we want it? Now!

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Guest: (815 days ago)

10% is a lot of money compared to other countries. Timor-Leste is only 1.3%. Myanmar is only 1.8%. Turkmenistan is only 2.0%. Qatar is 2.2%.

The USA that makes a huge profit on healthcare is 17.1% of GDP. Not even twice the UK costs especially considering how good the system is there. No problems with patient stacking and you have so many choices of insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors.

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10% is a lot of money compared to other countries. Timor-Leste is only 1.3%. Myanmar is only 1.8%. Turkmenistan is only 2.0%. Qatar is 2.2%.

The USA that makes a huge profit on healthcare is 17.1% of GDP. Not even twice the UK costs especially considering how good the system is there. No problems with patient stacking and you have so many choices of insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors.

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Guest: Bryn (815 days ago)

You'd seriously compare the UK to East Timor, Myanmar and Turkmenistan? And is that total healthcare costs or just government spend?

I leave it to you to work out why Quatar spends only 2.2% - and, again, is that total or government spend.

As for the USA - 17.1%! What a waste - and even greater waste having to mess around with loads of insurance companies etc. (I've lived in Switzerland where you have to go through the same annual dance of finding the right insurer - a complete waste of time). And that's just for those who can afford it.

So - sure, 10% is a lot of money but it's brilliant value.

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You'd seriously compare the UK to East Timor, Myanmar and Turkmenistan? And is that total healthcare costs or just government spend?

I leave it to you to work out why Quatar spends only 2.2% - and, again, is that total or government spend.

As for the USA - 17.1%! What a waste - and even greater waste having to mess around with loads of insurance companies etc. (I've lived in Switzerland where you have to go through the same annual dance of finding the right insurer - a complete waste of time). And that's just for those who can afford it.

So - sure, 10% is a lot of money but it's brilliant value.

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Guest: (815 days ago)

I think he was trying to point out that throwing out numbers is meaningless without knowing all the details.

GDP is derived from consumption, government purchases, investment and net exports. Since the USA imports more then exports, its technical GDP is lower than theactual amount of work making the percentage of healthcare expenses artifically high.

Personally, I would rather see how much of our salaries are spent on healthcare. That would make more sense.

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I think he was trying to point out that throwing out numbers is meaningless without knowing all the details.

GDP is derived from consumption, government purchases, investment and net exports. Since the USA imports more then exports, its technical GDP is lower than theactual amount of work making the percentage of healthcare expenses artifically high.

Personally, I would rather see how much of our salaries are spent on healthcare. That would make more sense.

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Casey Casey (815 days ago)
Latest comment:

I hear what you're saying but I question the NHS's efficiency. It's reportably the fifth biggest employer in the. World! I know to you, and many others, it seems to be a good deal but what are the real costs? The UK is over 1.25 trillion pounds in debt and climbing, I'm not saying the NHS is responsible for all that but with a beurocracy that big( I wonder how many public service men and women there are earning over £500,000 a year) it must be contributing in no small way. My point is, one day in the future, when all these govts. that promise things that are in fact unaffordable, can no longer fund them except by reducing services and increasing taxes on perhaps a yet unborn population, is that morally acceptable? Think what's happening in Greece, everyone was happy to retire at 50 without a care in the world.....until they can't. That burden is now to be born by the young who haven't participated in that lifestyle and probably never will because of it.

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Latest comment:

I hear what you're saying but I question the NHS's efficiency. It's reportably the fifth biggest employer in the. World! I know to you, and many others, it seems to be a good deal but what are the real costs? The UK is over 1.25 trillion pounds in debt and climbing, I'm not saying the NHS is responsible for all that but with a beurocracy that big( I wonder how many public service men and women there are earning over £500,000 a year) it must be contributing in no small way. My point is, one day in the future, when all these govts. that promise things that are in fact unaffordable, can no longer fund them except by reducing services and increasing taxes on perhaps a yet unborn population, is that morally acceptable? Think what's happening in Greece, everyone was happy to retire at 50 without a care in the world.....until they can't. That burden is now to be born by the young who haven't participated in that lifestyle and probably never will because of it.

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Guest: (818 days ago)

There's no need to bring race into it.

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There's no need to bring race into it.

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TheBob TheBob (817 days ago)

Ha ha - don't know if this is a wind-up. For the benefit of non-UK boreme-ites, "black cab" is the licensed vehicle (which may actually be black, white, pink or whatever) that you can flag down on the street. "Black cabbie" is a driver of a black cab - s/he may be black, white, pink or whatever.

This item is confusing because the black cab is white and the black cabbie is black.

Anyway, I'm totally with Russell and Courtney on this one: black cabs offer a safe, licensed, insured and knowledgeable service. I'd rather pay a bit more for that security than have some ignorant, unregulated, possibly uninsured cowboy who doesn't know the best way to get around.

If we lose black cabs it will be the worse for London

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Ha ha - don't know if this is a wind-up. For the benefit of non-UK boreme-ites, "black cab" is the licensed vehicle (which may actually be black, white, pink or whatever) that you can flag down on the street. "Black cabbie" is a driver of a black cab - s/he may be black, white, pink or whatever.

This item is confusing because the black cab is white and the black cabbie is black.

Anyway, I'm totally with Russell and Courtney on this one: black cabs offer a safe, licensed, insured and knowledgeable service. I'd rather pay a bit more for that security than have some ignorant, unregulated, possibly uninsured cowboy who doesn't know the best way to get around.

If we lose black cabs it will be the worse for London

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